16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.


Ask yourself why Paul uses the words "Christ Jesus" and not "Jesus Christ" ?



19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

As said, Paul taught good things like that. It hardly commands me to test Paul against Jesus,


It says test ALL things - that would mean test the words of Paul against the words of Jesus as well.


but, as you, Shaun, and Rodin, who warns to test to distinguish a sheep from one in sheep's clothing, will not actually provide evidence of contradiction between Paul and Jesus but leave it to any in my place


Please go through this website - there are many documents showing the contradictions (eg: Paul vs Jesus).
See
http://www.truthseekers.co.za/component/option,com_mjfrontpage/Itemid,33/




They both say Jesus has unity with the Father, and there is agreement that we are saved to new life through Jesus, the one way to God.


John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that carries on listening to my word, and keeps on believing on Him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Very important : Notice the "carries on listening to His Word", not the words of Paul. Listen to is hearing and applying His Words, that is believing in. Believing that He is truth, He is the Way and he is the Life. No one else but - quite as you said - Jesus the one way (not paul's way) to God.


Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”



Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


Christ died for the ungodly? Where did Jesus say that?

Let's see :

Exodus 23:7 "...I
WILL NOT JUSTIFY THE UNGODLY"

Paul:
Romans 4:5: 'trust him who justifies the ungodly'.

See further:
http://www.truthseekers.co.za/content/view/108/53/


9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.


Please quote where Jesus said that we are justified by His blood?


11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


Who is the we? Please substantiate with the words of Jesus.

Mattthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"



Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Paul's gift vs Jesus Count the Cost

Jesus
Luke 14:25-35

# "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

# "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

# "For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it--

# "lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,

# "saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

# "Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?

# "Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace.

# "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

# "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned?

# "It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"


Romans 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.


Paul has missed out on some very important information here. It was very necessary for paul to point out that the words of Jesus need to abide in the person too.

John 15:7

"If you abide in me and my words abide in you,



! Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us,


Please tell me where Jesus said he "died for us"? And again I ask this just to show you the quite subtle differences between both the meaning and the application of the words of Yeshua vs the words Paul.



There are so many of these from quoting Paul but as you can have the idea from all this it would be wasteful to continue putting in more passages, they all show Paul agreed with Jesus on this.


No.


You should just be reading these and seeing it. It is Christianity, and what Jesus Christ taught.


Yeshua taught us to follow Him (not paul). The words of Paul and the Jesus Christ Paul tells us about is Christianity.


You have not really quoted about the importance of the words of Jesus which I have shown above, that Jesus said were extremely important. Any person pointing you to Jesus would have to quote words of Jesus and provide the Way to salvation by way of His Words.


These are essential things of Christianity.


To quote Paul and not Jesus? Why even quote Paul if Jesus is the only way?




"Where did Paul glorify the Words of "Jesus Christ" ? Simply by paul saying he glorified Jesus Christ does not mean he glorified Jesus Christ in deed and in word.

And the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet catching fish of all kinds, good and bad..."


This is also saying that even if a person calls himself a Christian (like Paul) and professes Jesus Christ (like Paul) and spreads his gospel (like Paul), that person can still be bad.

Good Christianity is to be a good follower of the words of Paul, not the words of Jesus.


that Paul glorified Jesus Christ, in word clearly as is shown, and also in deed, as the basis for recognizing apostles otherwise applies to him too.


Please read the document "Did Paul disobey his Lord?" on this website.

Also the basis for recognizing apostles - what was that? If you look at the qualifications for people to be apostles, Paul did not qualify.

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

"the twelve" - the = definite article. What number was Paul? Clearly there were only twelve (true) apostles whose names were inscribed in the twelve foundations.

Paul brought a different gospel.

According to Yeshua, salvation = faith, justice and mercy (Matt. 23:23), plus good works (James 2:24-26), plus obedience to the commandments (Matt. 7:21-23).

Paul changed this to salvation = faith alone (Gal. 2:18; 3:3), i.e. no works.

Did Paul really have the authority to override Yeshua and bring something new? That's why it's vital to check his credentials.

Shalom

The same writer who wrote passages you quote to say there are criteria for apostleship also said that Paul was apostle. I may freely quote Acts, I profess belief in what is taught in Acts as a book of the Bible, but if you speak against Acts as such, you are not free to make a point of what to believe from it. That the names of the 12 apostles will be written on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem and that there will be the thrones for them will mean that they are those who were the apostles to Israel, there having been twelve. It did not include Paul, or Barnabas either. Paul was specifically apostle to the gentiles, and and recognized for that by other apostles, even though it seemed Paul cared more for those of Israel, from what he expressed.

Any who saw Paul after his conversion was witness to him being converted, how were others more witnessed of their conversion?

After the Council in Jerusalem, several men appointed by the apostles accompanied Paul on his way back, and the epistle certainly went to those to whom it was sent. The commandments in the epistle were the limited ones from the Law to Israel that were to be binding to those in the believing church from the gentiles. Paul also related an additional thing, in addition to the Law, that was to be required from them.

That the church of the Ephesians tested those who claimed to be apostles and were not does not in itself show to be including Paul, and Paul himself warned of such imposters. There needs to be more to show that Paul himself was one.

In looking at what I could find on the matter, Paul was following within rabbinical tradition with respect to what was questioned regarding Psalm 68, and it included that in taking of gifts, Yahweh God was using an occasion to give back gifts, for God gives more than we can give to him. That there were ungodly abuses from institutions later in history, to lay this as a direct responsibility of Paul is certainly unfair, as this practice may be used against anybody, as some have said even against Christ, it would still be unfair. It was not because of a truth, because it is true God gave gifts.

Paul was not truly boastful, but in the case of a licentious or rebellious church that became presumptuous Paul needed to remind them of their stand against him with a history of credentials that established him, even Moses had to do similar things, and he was the most humble man.

I already showed that both Paul and Yeshua agreed that salvation was by faith in Yeshua, see what I have written before, justice and mercy and good works were necessary then, and were expected to follow, with those who are truly saved.

I truly do not know what is supposed to be the relevance of writing Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ.

http://www.truthseekers.co.za/component/option,com_mjfrontpage/Itemid,33/

I looked at that site. If you want to give a _link_ to show things to be convincing, it should not require going to other _link_s. I found nothing that showed me anything on that page.

Hello BBlreader, I am sorry I haven't been able to answer to your other posts, I hadn't been feeling well lately and was just hospitalized for three days and am just starting to catch up on things. I would just like to comment on what you wrote here as it is the most recent from you and get back to your other posts if you still would like an answer. It should not be assumed that because someone hasn't answered you it is because they don't have an answer, it could be a many other reasons.



bblreader wrote:
The same writer who wrote passages you quote to say there are criteria for apostleship also said that Paul was apostle. I may freely quote Acts, I profess belief in what is taught in Acts as a book of the Bible, but if you speak against Acts as such, you are not free to make a point of what to believe from it. That the names of the 12 apostles will be written on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem and that there will be the thrones for them will mean that they are those who were the apostles to Israel, there having been twelve. I agree with you, because there are contradictions in Acts then we must search elsewhere to see if there is any other place we can find information on this. I have done such a thing. I guess it wasn't this thread I posted it in so I will do so again. I am not saying however that all of Acts is false, by no means, but it is biased and slanted by whomever Luke got his information from. And this book is not about the acts of the apostles, the original ones combined do not get nearly as much press as does Paul and those who came and went with him.

Very little is said even about Peter, James and John, the main ones even according to Paul in his writing about them. So we must if being honest, view this book as it was written, by the personal Greek physician of Paul. As far as being fully inspired by the Holy Spirit I must strongly disagree. There is no way you can convince me that Yeshua would use the words from a Greek play about a false god in speaking to Paul, NO WAY. If you don't know what I am referring to, google, Greek Play by Euripides Called the Bacchae

Here's an excerpt:
D: You've heard my words but understood nothing,
Pentheus. Even after you've treated me so evilly, still, I'm telling you, do not take up arms against a god. Calm yourself instead. Bromios won't put up with you chasing
his joyful crying Bacchants from the mountains.
P: Don't you instruct me. Rather, since you've escaped with your freedom, hold on to it. Or shall I punish you again?
D: I would offer him sacrifice rather than kick against the god's goads in anger, a piddly mortal man.
P: Oh, I'll sacrifice: with loads of feminine slaughter,just like they deserve, in the valleys of Kithairon.

That in itself should make you question Paul's 'visitation' as well as this de_script_ion.

Acts 9:5 And he said , Who art thou , Lord? And the Lord said , I am Jesus whom thou persecutest : it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

And

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said , Who art thou , Lord? And he said , I am Jesus whom thou persecutest . 16 But rise , and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,

Just in these two parts of the 'visitation' many questions arise.

1. When asked who he is, why does 'he' answer "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest"? Yeshua is in heaven, Paul was persecuting his followers. Now I'm sure you will have the answer that Jesus meant that his followers were part of him thus he was being persecuted through them, but Paul, unsaved, unknowing of this would not understand it, so it would make no sense to him and I'm sure if this was Yeshua that he would have made it clear to him.

2. Why does Paul describe this 'visitation' by saying there was only a voice and bright light, yet the one who is speaking and calling himself Jesus says he appeared to him? The Greek word used is 'Optanomai' and literally means to appear visibly, to allow oneself to be seen'.

It is used here in John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. 17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?

Here he is clearly saying that they will not see him for those three days, then he will go to the father but then reappear to them visibly, which he did and there are many accounts.

But this usage of this word in Acts contradicts what he said in John:

"Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live , ye shall live also."

The world would not see him, this included Paul, only those who loved him, were part of him got to see him after the resurrection. He was not to come visibly to earth until the fulfillment of Zech 14 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

It also contradicts that which is written in Luke's accounts of Paul's 'visitation' by him writing this:

1: 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld , he was taken up ; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly * toward heaven as he went up * , behold , two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said , Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


#3 Why is it that we see Saul not showing fear? Moses hid his face, Isaiah trembled because he knew he was a man of unclean lips, Daniel fell down and had to be helped up, even John who knew his beloved Savior. This is a natural reaction, Saul did not display any of this fear of encountering the arisen Messiah.


Now as far as finding a witness to who was to be an Apostle.

We need only to look to the Gospel of John.

The prayer in the garden the night before the crucifixion.

6 I manifested your name unto the men whom you gave me out of the world: yours they were, and you gave them to me; and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that all things whatsoever you have given me are from you: 8 for the words which you gave me I have given unto them; and they received them, and knew of a truth that I came forth from you, and they believed that you did send me. 9 I am asking on their behalf; I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them.....................11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the _script_ure might be fulfilled.

The _script_ure he is speaking of is from Psalms which Peter spoke of when a replacement for Judas was made. The most important requirement was that the choice be from those who had been with him and been an eyewitness to his ministry from the beginning to the ascension. We see that these 12 witnesses are 6 times the amount required by Torah which is poignant in itself but for some other time. We can see this further down in chapter 17

18 As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth. 20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Notice he is saying that he has already made them Apostles to the world. He prays for the protection and sanctification of these and also for those who believe in him through their (eyewitness) word. Right there we see that for those who didn't already believe, belief would come to others through the words , the eyewitness words of these men.

Paul eye-witnessed nothing but a false vision.

Another important and often over looked part of this prayer is the next part.

22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.


And they were at one with each other as with him. Paul was an outsider always. He never became one with them and we have them dropping hints of this in the few letters from them we have.

"There were those who went out from us but were not of us", things like that. It is even seen in Luke's accounts that they are in agreement, of one accord with each other but there seems to always be conflict between them and Paul.

bblreader wrote:
It did not include Paul, or Barnabas either. Paul was specifically apostle to the gentiles, and and recognized for that by other apostles, even though it seemed Paul cared more for those of Israel, from what he expressed.
According to Lukes account, in three chapters of Acts, (9,0,15) the one chosen to go to the gentiles, it was by his mouth that they were to hear of the Salvation of G-d. The L-RD specifies who of the Gentiles he wanted him to go to. These were not the heathens, but the G-d fearers. Paul, once he got so much flack from the Jews because they did not believe his bogus gospel, decided of his own accord to take his message to the heathens. Not the G-d fearers, but instead
the ignorant heathens that would believe anything that Paul taught them. Trouble arose with this and can be seen in many of Paul's letters where the true Apostles had heard of what he was really teaching and came to them and taught them the truth. There are many verses in his letters that show this, if you can't see them for yourself I will give you a beginning list.

As far as him caring more for Israel that was a farce, one of the accusations against him was that he spoke against the Jews. He wrote things that make you think he cared about them but his actions show what was in his heart.

To the Galatians he tells them that the right hand of fellowship was given to him and Barnabas. Barnabas was already a part of the Jerusalem church. Paul and Barnabas along with others sent with them were to bring to the heathen the beginning requirements of coming into the fold. Paul seems to have not agreed with this. We also only have speculation on what his idea of a "right
hand of fellowship" was.

bblreader wrote:
Any who saw Paul after his conversion was witness to him being converted, how were others more witnessed of their conversion? Those who were the true apostles were sanctioned by Yeshua himself. Read John 17 in full. Here is an excerpt:



6 "I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you; 8 for the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am asking on their behalf; I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them............14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world.